Maverick Moore’s MY DINNER WITH WERNER knowingly, and lovingly spoofs Werner Herzog and Klaus Kinski

A mash-up of My Dinner With Andre with My Best Fiend might, at one time, have sounded far too esoteric for a mainstream audience. But director-cowriter Maverick Moore has picked his moment. Thanks to appearances on The Mandalorian, The Simpsons, Jack Reacher and all his documentaries, Werner Herzog is arguably as big a figure in pop culture now as he’s ever been. Hugo Weaving directly impersonated him to play the Red Skull in Captain America; many more do so every day on YouTube. At this point, it’s possible to know who Herzog is without having any idea that he’s a filmmaker equally acclaimed for his fiction films as his nonfiction.

Moore’s short My Dinner with Werner, which has screened at a number of film festivals this year, is best appreciated by those who also know Klaus Kinski, and his famously turbulent relationship with Herzog spanning multiple films and death threats. In it, Moore imagines the night in 1987 that their working relationship finally ended, as the maniacal Kinski (played by actual Kinski obsessive Andrew Perez) repeatedly interrupts a dinner date by trying to murder Herzog (Matthew Sanders). For anyone who doesn’t know the real story, it’s an over-the-top comedy about two German madmen. Those who do know the background will realize it’s not as exaggerated as it might appear.

Films Gone Wild caught up with Moore to find out just how deep his Herzog/Kinski knowledge goes. Unsurprisingly, he proved quite the scholar of the subjects.

1. Werner Herzog has, I think, become a pop-culture fixture even among people who have no idea he was ever a filmmaker. Given that the ubiquitous version is this “crazy old guy” image, did you ever worry the younger mustached version might throw people off?

For better or worse, I never worried about that. But my choice was motivated by the story I wanted to tell.

The story for My Dinner with Werner was born out of my love and fascination with Herzog and his borderline murderous relationship with controversial actor Klaus Kinski. Their work together was legendary. Their partnership was notorious. Their methods were dangerous. And their “friendship” was stranger than fiction – both have sincerely plotted to kill one another. However, this aspect of their collaboration arguably contributed to the five films they made together. But in 1987, after making movies together for over 15 years, they stopped working together – forever. There are lots of little reasons why (like, you know, wanting to murder each other). But the exact, singular event that led to their separation (if there is one) is a mystery.

So, I was inspired to tell the story of what “really” happened – the night it all went devilishly wrong. When Werner is on a blind date. And mustached.

2. Likewise, Herzog is now one of those celebrities, like William Shatner and Christopher Walken, that everybody thinks they can impersonate. How challenging was that to deal with when trying to cast and nail your particular version? And even in a broadly comedic sketch, how do you help to find the truth in that performance?

The challenge began with the screenplay. The Werner character in the film was always intended to be a fictional adaptation – an exaggeration for both humor and heart, but one that also honored his actual intensity, brilliance, and awesomeness. We wanted the character to embody the real Herzog from the mid-to-late 1980s, but to be farcically situated in a fish-out-of-water setting and scenario. However, we also wanted the character to eventually break from his known shell and show his heart – so we could connect with him in a different way than we do with the real Herzog. We hoped that doing so would make the character more than an impersonation and instead someone we could identify with, understand, care about, and root for.

And then of course casting the Werner character was the next phase of the challenge. We did an online worldwide search, and the process was extensive (but necessary). To see how actors could embody the real Herzog from that era, we first asked actors to send us a self-tape performing Werner Herzog’s monologue about the jungle and the harmony of the universe from Les Blank’s Burden of Dreams. After that, to see how well actors could adapt that portrayal to our fictional character, we then asked actors to send a self-tape performing a few scenes from the film as a callback. And, finally, we then arranged a chemistry test with the lead actress, Chynna Walker, and chatted with the actor about the character, the story, and the process.

For the role, we were incredibly fortunate to cast Matthew Sanders (who coincidentally has also worked with some of Herzog’s peers; Volker Schlöndorff and Margarethe von Trotta). Matthew made the character much more than an impersonation. He is the one who found truth in the performance – in humor and heart and beyond. Matthew was an all-around awesome collaborator and I am endlessly grateful for his trust, talent, and wisdom.

3. In making a movie that mashes up My Dinner with Andre and My Best Fiend, did you feel confident enough viewers would get the references? How important was it that the film work on its own for people who might not know? And how has that played for anyone you might have shown it to so far?

Our goal from the beginning was for the film to be a good time at the movies – whether or not you catch the references. We wanted it to be fun for everyone – both for folks familiar with Herzog and Kinski, and for folks that have no clue who they are. So, it was very important that the movie would be understandable to all audiences.

As a cinephile and Herzog fanboy, that was admittedly difficult for me at times. But several practices helped with that goal. One major help was co-writing the story and screenplay with Ryan McNamara, who was not overly familiar with any of the referenced material, including Herzog and Kinski. And, when the film was being edited, we would show every cut of the movie to people that were totally unfamiliar with the influences and references (and vice versa) to gauge their reactions. Doing all of that enabled us (to the best of our abilities) to craft the film in a way that ideally worked for both general and cinephilic audiences.

But sometimes that required sacrifice. For example, the film used to be literally twice as long as it is now. There were moments and scenes in that version I dearly loved (and still love), but I had to kill my darlings – many of which were ultimately just references. In fact, most of the conversational My Dinner with Andre references were chopped out as a result. Now, the film is much more digestible, focused, fast, and fun. As much as the cuts hurt (for example, the bathroom scene used to be one long unbroken shot and there used to even be a Jesse “The Body” Ventura dream sequence), it was for the better – it’s all about what makes it a better movie as a whole.

Fortunately, we have since had a long (and fun) festival run, picked up some awards here and there along the way, and we are gearing up for our online public release in 2021. For a story inspired by Herzog and Kinski and their turbulent legacy, it’s all intentionally bizarre and appropriately bonkers – perhaps more so for folks unfamiliar with them. But they often finish the film curious to learn more about each of them, their history, and the films they made together. Nonetheless, audience responses have been really positive, gracious, and encouraging – thankfully, from both people familiar with Herzog and Kinski, and from people that had no earthly idea who they are. We are super thankful.

4. How much of Herzog’s dialogue in the film is direct quotes from him? Any of Kinski’s?

Another goal we had with the film was to take wildly peculiar things that both Herzog and Kinski have said or done in real life and adapt them into the context of the story. This demanded thoroughly researching both Herzog and Kinski, but it was a fun endeavor with lots of outrageous discoveries. All the absurd deaths that Klaus screams Werner deserves (by crocodiles, panther claws, and many more), for example, are based on Kinski’s actual ramblings. We also incorporated some of the more known fun facts – Herzog’s deep fear of chickens, his glowing admiration of WrestleMania, and his notorious story about threatening Kinski with a rifle to not leave the film shoot in the jungle (which Herzog has told audiences repeatedly throughout the years). As bizarre as some of the stuff the characters say and do are, they are inspired by fascinating actualities. Sadly, though, Herzog eating his shoe never made the cut.

5. I presume Klaus Kinski was a lot harder to cast and/or get right, even though he’s less known. Did you ever have to say the words “that was too over the top?” What part of the “character” of Klaus were you able to relate to, to keep the story rooted in enough truth to hold our attention?

From the outset, it seemed like Klaus would be the most formidable role to cast. However, we got immeasurably lucky.

In the middle of casting, I got a personal email from an actor named Andrew Perez. In his email, he told me outright that he had essentially already reincarnated Klaus Kinski – he studied him for over a decade and even wrote and starred in an award-winning play, The Second Coming of Klaus Kinski. The boldness of his email spoke to me, as did all of his undeniably impressive materials he sent with it. But before casting him, I video chatted with him to make sure he wasn’t and wouldn’t be as troublesome (to put it mildly) as Kinski was said to be. And, thankfully, Andrew was super gracious, skilled, intelligent, and all-around amazing to work with – from then and beyond. He was not at all the diabolical persona Kinski seemed to be (except when he needed to be, on-screen).

But Andrew’s play was a different genre than my film, and so the interpretation and portrayal of the character (which, like Kinski, is inherently “over the top”) was a bit different – his play is more dramatic and intense, and my film is more comedic and farcical. So, it was all about finding the right “over the top”.

And Klaus is the villain in this film, which also shaped the character and performance. But, despite him being maniacal, what I find relatable about the Klaus character in the film is that he’s feeling a mix of anger, remorse, desperation, and denial by his world changing – in his case, a successful partnership and close friendship (it’s complicated) is ending. He’s unable to move on and let go of the past, and I think that’s something we all sometimes struggle with – especially when it involves someone or something you have a rich history with.

6. Where did you find the chicken that would stay still enough for the close-ups? Did you have to use the old “hypnotize a chicken” trick?

Naturally, we wanted to open the movie with a shot of a chicken creepily staring into the camera. Needless to say, this was not easy.

The chicken was courtesy of Christian Oliveira, a friend who happens to own a variety of chickens. But he actually brought two chickens to the shoot. Chicken #1 was appropriately horrifying and nightmarish but unfortunately wouldn’t sit still, so the chicken was recast. Chicken #2 was much less horrifying and nightmarish but was thankfully able to sit still, so that’s the chicken that’s in the movie. However, we had to shoot in slow-motion to get the shot – the chicken kept looking around in every other direction but the camera. It took a lot of patience. And there was chicken poop everywhere. But, hey, we got the shot. And no hypnosis needed (but we did watch a YouTube tutorial just in case).

This is a bit of a tangent, but the major intention of the shot was to represent the Werner character’s fear (and, therefore, weakness). The real Werner Herzog is seemingly invincible, but the Werner character had to have a weakness. And it had to be chickens. That choice was inspired from our research. Essentially, Herzog identifies chickens as living manifestations of death – most are bred to be domesticated and then killed. So, according to him, when you look into the eyes of a chicken, you’ll see the part of yourself that you’re most afraid of – your final destination: death. And the most frightful kind of stupidity. Which, according to Herzog, is the devil. So, it just made sense to open the film with a chicken staring into your soul.

7. How did you conceive of the female lead? What were the influences?

From the start, we knew we wanted the story to be centered around a blind date at a formal, fancy restaurant. Our goal in doing so was to humorously juxtapose Werner’s characteristic deadpan demeanor and rugged appearance with a traditionally romantic scenario and elegant setting.

But we also knew we wanted the female character to actually be the main character that drove the plot. Chynna Walker starred in my previous short film, SHOTGUN, and we always intended to work together again. Knowing her style of comedy and her range as a performer, I knew she would elevate what we wanted to achieve with this character. So, we wrote the role of Christine for her and, in some cases, with her. It was crucial to all of us that her character was authentic, entertaining, complex, and never ever a damsel in distress. Unlike Werner and Klaus, her character is an ambassador of the audience and not based on anyone, so we worked closely with Chynna to develop her character’s identity, personality, motives, and backstory in a way that made sense given her character’s twisty journey in the film. Stylistically, one big inspiration was Audrey Horne from Twin Peaks, but the character was otherwise original.

Collaborating and working with Chynna was excellent in every step – from writing to production and beyond. The same goes for every other crew and cast member. I was very lucky to work with each and every one of them. Please hire them all.

8. Popcorn or candy? “The only thing I would ever eat would be popcorn, obviously. But it has to be with butter. You see, I’m old-fashioned – I do the unhealthiest of things, and I love it. And I love the grease on my fingers. And I love the scent of it. Just the scent alone makes me euphoric.” – Werner Herzog